First topic message reminder :

You can't find a better starting topic then to debate the existing of God... or it being one of the worlds largest lies. Cultures on every single land space believe in some sort of higher power.


What do you think?

Lazarus McDeathsinger wrote:This is not about christianity specifically. However, go ahead, pull out some verses that say that those who pretend to follow "the word of god" for their personal benefit are granted into heaven or whatever.

If you accept christ and your of christian belief the only way for you not to go to hell is to deny god that is one of the unforgivable sins

Okay lets go into the whole "Evolution" theory. People say that man evolved from earth correct? Well if this is true then how come we have to donate blood? Why couldn't we just find blood on Earth?

Here is another one:
You see this painting
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k238/darrenandmaria/PaintingsReed059.jpg

How do you know there was a painter?

You see this building?
http://apartmentaccess.net/south/sample/images/aptImages/building.jpg

How do you know there was a builder?

You see this earth?
http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/design/images/earth.jpg

How do you know there is not a creator?


What about the people that have past away for a few mins then come back to life and claim they were near heaven?

What about tongues?
Some might not know what that is but it is like a spiritual language.
People speak in tongues and where do they get the ability to speak it? You can't just randomly make up a language and make it sound legit. My mom speaks in tongues and holy shit I am puzzled to how the hell she does it. It is insane.


I don't know I am a strong believer that there is a God and that Jesus was God in the flesh. It even says in the bible about the end of the Earth and guess what.. it is all coming true. This was written thousands of years ago.

In my opinion it makes to much sense.

Legacy wrote:

Lazarus McDeathsinger wrote:This is not about christianity specifically. However, go ahead, pull out some verses that say that those who pretend to follow "the word of god" for their personal benefit are granted into heaven or whatever.

If you accept christ and your of christian belief the only way for you not to go to hell is to deny god that is one of the unforgivable sins

How is "meh, I'll just go with it even though I think it's absolute bullshit" the same as "accepting christ and being of christian faith"?

virtuosity wrote:Post...

a) That is not the evolution theory. You're referring to the Oparin-Haldane hypothesis, which is a proven, through experimentation, hypothesis that life can come to be from the the basic elements C,H,O,N,P, and S , water, and energy (eletricity). In the primitive Earth, all these elements were present in the atmosphere, and the lightning that prevailed provided the energy.

If you google the Urey-miller experiment, you'll see that scientists are able to create some of the basic elements of life, such as amino-acids (the building blocks of proteins, and thus, life), fatty acids in the lab using nothing but the conditions of primitive Earth.

With a little bit of luck, and whole bunch of time (we're talking millions of years) this could develop into membranes, ARN, DNA, and later on, cells. This is the most accepted theory about how life began on earth.

So yes, in reality, you, in a way, could find blood on Earth.

b) If you were to put that painting, or that building, in the middle of the jungle were an amazonian tribe without contact whatsoever with the contemporary world (I assure, they do exist), their logical explanation would be that it is somekind magic that created it ("god", tezcatlipoca, or whatever they want to call it)... and they would be wrong. See, we can only know things we have a frame of reference of. You know that painting was made by a painter because you have a background knowledge that ALL painting are made by painters. That background knowledge does not exist with Earth, who is to say that you, like the amazonians, are not wrong? You certainly could be wrong, and there's always the possibility that you could be right, but it is outright ignorant to claim the 'magic' one as being THE truth.

c) What about them? What about those who had the same thing happen and claimed not to see heaven or god? This relates more to the physical aspect of being death. Their bodies could be dead, but their brains could still have enough oxygen to imagine stuff. I'd rather not go into this.

d) I do not understand what you mean with tongues? Do you mean a random language that sounds like it is real. That is no proof at all that there is a god.

I dunno T@d the whole pascals wager doesn't sound like it would work I mean if you believe God exists and that he is omnipotent and created all life on earth then knowing the truth of your actions is a piece of cake. Maybe I'm not sure the idea just sits uncomfortably with me because I'm the sort of person that when I commit it has to be full and I have to give it my all.

It's alot easier for me to reply in the quote so I can cover every point. I hope you understand and am not breaking any "rules"..... Hitler.

Lazarus McDeathsinger wrote:
a) That is not the evolution theory. You're referring to the Oparin-Haldane hypothesis, which is a proven, through experimentation, hypothesis that life can come to be from the the basic elements C,H,O,N,P, and S , water, and energy (eletricity). In the primitive Earth, all these elements were present in the atmosphere, and the lightning that prevailed provided the energy. Maybe God made those?

If you google the Urey-miller experiment, you'll see that scientists are able to create some of the basic elements of life, such as amino-acids (the building blocks of proteins, and thus, life), fatty acids in the lab using nothing but the conditions of primitive Earth. Maybe God made those?

With a little bit of luck, and whole bunch of time (we're talking millions of years) this could develop into membranes, ARN, DNA, and later on, cells. This is the most accepted theory about how life began on earth. Maybe God made those too?

So yes, in reality, you, in a way, could find blood on Earth. Maybe God madethat as well?

b) If you were to put that painting, or that building, in the middle of the jungle were an amazonian tribe without contact whatsoever with the contemporary world (I assure, they do exist), their logical explanation would be that it is somekind magic that created it ("god", tezcatlipoca, or whatever they want to call it)... and they would be wrong. See, we can only know things we have a frame of reference of. You know that painting was made by a painter because you have a background knowledge that ALL painting are made by painters. That background knowledge does not exist with Earth, who is to say that you, like the amazonians, are not wrong? You certainly could be wrong, and there's always the possibility that you could be right, but it is outright ignorant to claim the 'magic' one as being THE truth. You cant compare a painting to the earths creation. I can confidently say those "tribe" you speak of, believe their sourudings were made by a "higher power".

c) What about them? What about those who had the same thing happen and claimed not to see heaven or god? This relates more to the physical aspect of being death. Their bodies could be dead, but their brains could still have enough oxygen to imagine stuff. I'd rather not go into this. What about the ones who have. You can debate alot of situations that people haven't experienced the same things as others. Does that discount the things that some saw.... because others didnt see it?

d) I do not understand what you mean with tongues? Do you mean a random language that sounds like it is real. If you don't understand tongues, look it up in the bible. Basically.... its the 'holy ghosts way of speaking in a language that is not discernible by anyone but God... through you.That is no proof at all that there is a god.

a) Hey, so we've reached that point of the discussion where I reply "then, who made god?" and you reply "he was just there", and I'm not allowed to reply "why can't I say the matter that makes those elements was just there", because that would make me look stupid. You see, when you say god can exist without being created, and I'm not allowed to say the same thing about matter because I would look stupid, even though you have as much proof as I have, we've reached the point of the conversation where it cannot go any further.

b) So you can compare the painting to the earth's creation to prove that god exists (virtuosity), but you can't when it's the other way around?

c) In science, the most objective way to obtain knowledge human kind knows, the only way to prove something to be correct is if it happens everytime. This is not an observable phenomena that could be measured, and thus, at least in science, holds no weight.

d) Glossolalia are nothing but part of the religion(s), they are not considered to be a scientific, physical phenomenon.

So in c and d what I'm saying is that you can't prove god exists using other things that you can't prove exist either. It's like saying Garminipooboombas exists because if it doesn't, then how do you explain chichikimoongas and rambinsefotisbabo?

"I don't believe there's a god, but i do believe there's something there"

i think that's how she said it! haha
it was from a movie
and i uhh shittt i lost my train of thought..

Im gonna finally post my thought here.

Due to the recent happenings in Haiti... how can anyone believe in a loving, compassionate, far, and just "God". You can go the route of Pat Robertson, a largely respected religious leader, and state that Haiti had a "pact with the devil... many years ago"... but come on. Are you serious? Can you possibility explain the destruction, death, miss appropriated funds, and over all loss of those who were alive the 1st earthquake and/or the second one....to a situation that their government made? What about the ones who died? Where was their "God".

Theres two problematic "theories" when it involves this type of thing. Pascals wager and Occam's wager. Pascal theorized that it was better to believe there is a God and be wrong, then to believe there is no God and be wrong. Simple "you cant win if you dont play" type of thing. Occam stated, which was stated even as early as Aristotle.... The simplest answer us usually correct. It's easier to explain the scientific facts of even evolution (which I shy away from) then it is creationism. Creationism has to be one of the most far fetched ideals I have ever read.

"And God said/created....". Thats creationism in a nutshell. "God" created everything. No one else, no evolution, no adaptations... just him. He made what we have today. What you see, according to biblical terms, is how it was done. Yet theres proof of the large differences between the humans today and the humans we can trace back to.... but we were created in his own image? Huh?!

Jesus, although historically a great person, was the son of God? This is where I lose my "faith"... considering the belief in god or even A god is strictly based on that only.... faith.... But lets say there was a Jesus. He was the son of God. Performed miracles, brought back the dead, healed the blind, and even turned water into wine.....and his pops... God, cares about the world, loves them, is fair and just.... Why would Jesus not take the steps to "Prove" who he was and perform miracles when asked? When he was beaten, dragged around the city, treated like a criminal.... why not make it rain. Why not make the sand blue... something, anything to prove who he was, and that god was there. The worst that could happen is everyone believed, he won... and the devil lost. What "fair, loving, just God" wouldn't want that? Isn't that what the bible is really? A great story but basically a manual on how to get to heaven? "Do this, and u will meet me... do that and all will be yours". Now I have heard the line before "But God wont be challenged.." Huh? Are you going to say that his ego is too big to prove to someone that he loves and cares for that he actually exists? If he "created" us and heaven... he had to create hell right? Or atleast let it happen. He is "God" he can do anything. So this "God, is "letting" the "devil" run the earth.....? Why? That doesn't seem loving to me.

People do the same thing every day that are "believers". If they get what they "pray" for... it was Gods will and they praise him. If they don't... It was Gods will and they understand/look for something else.

It's all garbage to me. I was brought up in church all of my life till I was 20-ish. I "believed" back when.... but now that I have my own brain back from the church... it makes no sense.

To clarify... My previous posts were used for debating.... to play "devils advocate". The last post is my true feelings.

I could not have said it any better myself Tad. I look at all the assholes, douchebags, dumbasses, and cockgobblers around the world and realize that God is not the one who fucks everything up or makes people good or bad, it's our own race! If God really created us in his own image, then why is everybody so different? Someone would argue, "it's because God is anything and everything." That, to me, is a load of cow manure.

I don't believe anything Christianity, or any religion really, has to say about a divine being. The bible was written in a time where people believed the world was flat and that monsters would get you if you traveled off the edge. I mean, seriously? Those are the kind of philosophers and believers that wrote this fiction nonsense. Also, everything that was ever published during that time had to pass through the Emperor's hands, and only the Emperor himself could make changes and edit any text he desired for his own benefit. So, isn't it possible that maybe he edited the bible to his liking to give his people hope and faith when their beloved empire was falling apart? Gasp!

There are so many stories throughout religion that just discredit their own beliefs and morals, I choose to ignore them. What is the worst part of it all though is that arguing against someone who truly believes in this crap will never stop believing. They could have their family slaughtered in front of them, their dog being eaten, their home lit on fire, their money being stolen, and they could become a dirty hobo for 5 years, and they would still think it's all just a test from God.

"When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!" -- George Carlin, R.I.P.

tool wrote:I could not have said it any better myself Tad. I look at all the assholes, douchebags, dumbasses, and cockgobblers around the world and realize that God is not the one who fucks everything up or makes people good or bad, it's our own race!

I know Im not suppose to quote the post above me... but I have to.

Tool... In no way was I calling anyone that believes in God, names. I don't think they are any less intelligent then I am, you are, or anyone. I just don't believe in their "faith". People that believe in God are perfectly fine. They believe 1 thing, I believe another. I am looking forward to debating this wiht anyone who believes... but I cant say anyone who does is "wrong".

As an aside, it's perfectly fine to quote the post above you to highlight a particular part or deconstruct an argument, the intention of the rule is to avoid having to scroll down the same exact post you just read, when it's implied you're replying to the above poster in the forum structure.

I didn't really take the time to read tads or tools post but I will soon but I just want to say God did not intend on us to live this way. Adam and Eve had the perfect life until sin happened. Everything that you see on this Earth such as buildings and such was not Gods creation. Nature and the beauty of the Earth is.

Also how do you explain the Chariots Wheels?

http://images.google.com/images?q=red%20sea%20chariot%20wheels&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

virtuosity wrote:I didn't really take the time to read tads or tools post but I will soon but I just want to say God did not intend on us to live this way. Adam and Eve had the perfect life until sin happened.

Im being serious... I really am. This is the first hole to me in all of this.


According to the bible..... He creates man, and then woman. Prior to a child, or anything.. they had one rule. Don't eat from that tree. Thats it. Seems simple. But according to the bible, the woman ate... and then had the man eat. From that moment on child birth hurt (according to the bible) disease was born, wearing clothes was a conscious decision.... and mankind, for all of eternity was damned to sin (if they chose to). So... this "god" made a world. Loved it. Made trillions of species but only made one after his own image. He made them to understand him and have a decision making understanding...... and gave them a specific tree and said "hey... by the way, you can have everything but that".? What?!?! Three easy questions. 1. Why make the tree. 2. Why give them the ability of choice. 3. If God KNOWS whats going to already happen... why bother?


The bible is full of heart warming and great stories that help fill in gaps for those who believe in God. Im not saying those people are dumb... but I do believe they are relying more on faith then actually taking the time to consider the options.

http://www.gotquestions.org/tree-knowledge-good-evil.html

There is the answer.

I want to say something about Haiti but I can't because I don't want to put my foot in my mouth when I don't have the facts 100% right

I read the first line... and thats it. That goes back to my question.....why? How can you be a loving "father" and give the chance to make a mistake.

Look at it this way.... I don't let my kids play with knives, guns, rocket launchers, or rail guns... why? Because I actually care about them and don't want them to get hurt. I also wont drop a kilo of coke in their lap on their 16th birthday... why? Cause I care. A caring father takes the time and makes an effort to remove, at their best, even the opportunity to make a mistake or get hurt.

If thats a fact, which it is.... why would a loving God offer a chance to ruin the species he created? Why not tempt a butterfly? Ya... the bible says the snake paid for that "sin" as well.... but was it the snakes fault? According to the bible.... Satan took the form of a snake... but yet he made all snakes live on their belly?


Come on.

I read the rest of that website you sent, Virt. Honestly it looks like it was put together and written by someone in Sunday-school. The ideas and ideals are way off in my opinion. Comprehensively there is no coherent thought on that page that can't easily be passed by with a simple "are you serious?"


According to that person, God lied to man....

"Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’......."

"There was nothing essentially evil about the tree or the fruit of the tree. It is unlikely that eating the fruit truly gave Adam and Eve any further knowledge."

So God said it was evil, and they would die.... but it wasn't evil.... and they didn't die?

Going off of that website... well, I wouldn't.

LOL! Well I read it and am not sure how true that is but that is the top link on google.

See if I had someone that actually read the whole bible and knew everything such as some family members they could explain it.

virtuosity wrote:LOL! Well I read it and am not sure how true that is but that is the top link on google.

See if I had someone that actually read the whole bible and knew everything such as some family members they could explain it.

I was brought up in church and I have read the bible, cover to cover....5 times. Anything you want to ask... ask me. < illegal smiley.

T@D wrote:

tool wrote:I could not have said it any better myself Tad. I look at all the assholes, douchebags, dumbasses, and cockgobblers around the world and realize that God is not the one who fucks everything up or makes people good or bad, it's our own race!

Tool... In no way was I calling anyone that believes in God, names. I don't think they are any less intelligent then I am, you are, or anyone. I just don't believe in their "faith". People that believe in God are perfectly fine. They believe 1 thing, I believe another. I am looking forward to debating this wiht anyone who believes... but I cant say anyone who does is "wrong".

Neither was I. The assholes, douchebags, dumbasses, and cockgobblers I was referring to are the corrupted politicians, religious officials, and the educational authorities that think they have power over everyone else and can use that power to benefit themselves and screw over anyone they see fit. I have a lot of friends who believe in God, and I'm not bashing them for it. I may be Atheist, but I'm very tolerant of peoples' habits and beliefs.

im probably the only person in my family who does not believe in god. well im not a total atheist, because the only thing i dont believe is that he created the earth, the oceans etc. after i took earth science and astronmy last year i believed in the big bang theory. the only things i believe are armageddon and either you ascend to heaven or descend to hell.