First topic message reminder :

You can't find a better starting topic then to debate the existing of God... or it being one of the worlds largest lies. Cultures on every single land space believe in some sort of higher power.


What do you think?

You clearly didn't understand what I was saying at all just by reading the first line of your post. It is also apparent that you think I was trying to insult you because you implied I was as dumb as a child, which was very mature on your part. "This guy doesn't agree with me so I will call him dumb." Well done.

It was a question and I gave you an answer. People die. Everybody knows that praying doesn't save lives or else or else everyone would still be alive. That was your answer. You clearly took it the wrong way.

I hadn't posted in this topic before now because I knew this would be the response I would get. However, today I thought to myself that maybe I could give an opinion without people taking it personally and resorting to immature insults. I was wrong.

You didn't say you didn't understand my point, so that line "My post was simple, to the point, and although may not be agreed on, should be understood by even a child." wouldn't make sense if I was directing it at you. Actually, I was reiterating that my point should be easy to understand and actually broke it down after that line. And I didn't take your reply to me as an insult. No one is wrong for what they believe.

The issue I had was that your reply didn't answer my question the way I was hoping. So I tried to make it more of a zero'd in question. You answered with basically "life is part of death". And I agree. But what I am asking is, to people that believe in prayer, why would a god not only seem to ignore people's prayers, but allow them to have false hope by a mans mistake. And allow them to use that false hope to "praise" him... only to see in the end that he did nothing and it was just a mistake. Wouldn't a loving god at least say "hey guys, don't praise me for that info you got because it was wrong"

Now, you are saying "Everybody knows that praying doesn't save lives" and although I agree, it's apparent that quite a few people do. If the people that posted that they were going to pray for healing "know" that praying won't change the outcome, then why bother praying at all? Why bother bringing it up at all?

Again, your conclusion that praying won't save someones life is your answer to you. But I'm asking for those that do believe in the "power of prayer" to answer.

Prayer for personal gain wasn't what it was originally designed to be...it was originally made to give your problems away to God and for you to not worry yourself with them anymore cuz they're not your problems anymore, they're God's

You must really believe me to be a moron if you expect me to believe that first paragraph.

And to answer the false hope question, I'm not even saying there's a God. I don't care one way or the other. But people need hope. They pray because it gives them hope, however pointless it may be. Who cares? Who the fuck cares if they pray, even if it's pointless as hell? It's what they do because it gives them hope and maybe happiness. You want people who believe in the power of prayer to answer, but here's the thing, no one on this planet believes that prayer can solve anything, even people from death. No one. It is a well known fact that prayer doesn't solve everything. If i did, no one would have any problems. Like I said, it all comes down to hope.

Rape, war, death, hunger, destruction, torture, disease, filth, poverty, and murder. Sounds like some supreme being is fucking around up there.

"Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude." - George Carlin, R.I.P.

Everyone needs something to believe in, whether it's the simplicity of chance, or a being of absolute power.

If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything.

I believe in logic and reason. With those two, I will never lose sight of what is wrong or right, what is fact or fiction, or what life's purpose is. Both of these things will do more for me than God ever will, and if the world believed in logic and reason, it would benefit everyone more as well. Unfortunately, that is not the case. And as you can see, without logic or reason we have war, poverty, and all the other horrors that plague our daily lives.

Your retort?

Honestly, rational thought and chance are the only things to truly believe...too many "leaps of faith" when it comes to Christianity...too many variations of the same religion for all of them with the exception of Buddhism and Hinduism...they're the only 2 around that only have 1 path to follow those religions with. Scientology I guess has only one way to follow it but that "religion" is straight INSANE...I swear whoever thought of that was on LSD or something...

A rational christian argument?>



Do they not realize that taking a situation and creating it to be one sided... makes it one sided?

This guy really believes he "proved" something by using the same exact thing... faith.

Doesn't prove that he exists imo, all I got from it was.

A: You don't know 100% if he does or doesn't exist(him saying that he may exist in the knowledge I don't have)
B: "You got 2 choices, choice 1: You live, then die, choice 2: You live with a 'purpose' following a supreme being that I just said might exist in the knowledge you don't have, but that also means that he might not exist in the knowledge you don't have."(quotes are how I understood what he said)

Well I am not a god goer. Buuuuuuuttttt, in my opinion..life's purpose is what you make it. You ensure your own happiness or your own demise. In my opinion..I have experienced Black Magic and White Magic..but..we have lost sight of what is beyond our realm. Just as with our sub-consious, we alone have the ability to control what our dreams are. If we go deep enough. But..the whole god/Jesus thing. I am not convinced nor will I ever be.

I was watching some documentaries the past few weeks and came across something that I think everyone knows or has heard.... but it seems no one really challenges.

The order of creation according to the bible:

Day one:

Light.
The watery "earth" form.
Separating the darkness and light. (Day and night)

Day 2:

The divide between the water and the sky. Arguably the creation of the atmosphere.

Day 3:

Land
All vegetation

Day 4:

Planets
Moon
Stars

........Sun.



Wait, what? Some how there was "Light" created first, they that was divided on earth as day and night. Then vegetation was created..... then the sun?

I know people will use the "well god can do anything" bit, and that's hard to argue a vague blanket statement.... but does that make any sense to anyone realistically? To have "light" you need a source. You separate day from night in a sphere, you need a source that either rotates or a subject that rotates. Which would have to mean that light originally was all over, then somehow... he made it a source. And to have plants, you need the sun. But the sun came later.

I know this isn't proof of the existence or lack of existence of a god.... but doesn't it show that the book of genesis was, at best, poorly written?


EDIT: Wanted to add this as well. It's a cartoon and on a relatively comedic level.... but does use actual words from the bible (when it does, they are written at teh bottom). I was surprised about numbers 6 & 7..... but mostly 7. All those years in church and private school, it was never spoke of (7). And what was, was diluted so much and so much left out. Although I had read the bible cover to cover a few times when I was young, I wasn't old enough to actually understand what went on.

I'm sorry to once again pick on a face book post that I just don't understand... But as I mentioned, most of my friends I knew growing up in church and private school.

Somewone I know has a son born with quite a few medical problems. First off, personally that would make me question my faith, but thats just me. The medical bills are piling up and they need help. I sincerly and truely feel bad for their situation. I would asume a just and loving "god" wouldn't let them or the innocent child go through all this.... but I guess he has a "plan"? Garbage.

Here's her post..

"Some wonderful friends of ours have planned a fundraiser to help offset some of the medical expenses for our son Tristan's medical expenses. He had sugery in October and is looking at another 23 surgeries over the next 12 years. Please check your calendars and if you are able, we'd love to see you there. The event includes a concert, pasta dinner and some amazing silent auction items. You can RSVP at the Facebook"

To me, that seems somethiong "man" is putting together to help this family in their time of need. Where's "god" at exactly?

Her next post (not a reply to anyone, just a post) is what made me really confused....

"Isn't it amazing how God meets our needs?!"

Huh? If he was meeting their needs..... why would they need a fundraiser to raise money to help them and their son? What kind of "god" would take someone that is a follower of his, that praises him, preaches about him, and loves him and just let natural things happen? Why even need a doctor or surgeries? Why make the child born sick to begin with?

If all the innocent children in the world could be born normal, I would find a way to believe in a god..... but if there is a god....


What an asshole he is.

I love you Tad, lol.

I thought this was well written.

T@D wrote:So, if there is a Heaven and/or a hell... none of you care. What about Pascal's Wager. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager ).

Typically everyone says the same thing in multiple situations.... "better safe the sorry". Why does this never seem to apply to the existence of God?

I don't do this because it wouldn't be truly following God, it would be me doing w/e I can to keep myself away from pain and suffering. "I'm following you God not because I believe in you, but just in case you, Heaven, and Hell are real and I don't wanna end up in the worse one," my interpretation of that.

It's like in The Mummy when Beni was praying in multiple religions, he was doing w/e it takes to survive, praying to random deities not because he believes in them, but because he wants their protection.

I'll address the things I posted in the racism topic since EQ asked.

Here's the list I posted..

"The bible promotes genocide, rape, murder, lying, stealing, racism, slavery, hatred, intolerance, incest, drunkenness, deception"

Genocide: "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" (1 Samuel 15:2-3)

Rape(And Slavery and Stealing): As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

Lying: Look up Rahab. Someone "blessed" due to lying.

Stealing: There's tons they people were "commanded" to steal people, land, belongings.... the passage on Rape proves that as well.

Slavery: Posted a few in the other section.

Racism: But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel. (Exodus 11:7)


Hatred: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2nd Thessalonians 2:12)

Intolerance: And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. (Genesis 38:7) (He was killed by "god" for picking up sticks on the sabbath)


Incest(Also rape by todays standards): Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. (Genesis 19:32-36)

Drunkenness: The sons of Noah who went forth from the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Ham was the father of Canaan. These three were the sons of Noah; and from these the whole earth was peopled. Noah was the first tiller of the soil. He planted a vineyard; and he drank of the wine, and became drunk, and lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside (Genesis 9:18-22)


Deception: See lying.

There are many passages for each in the bible, I just picked one for each bullet point. Like I said, teh bible is full of this kinda shit. Yes, it has good messages from time to time, but that's the part I don't understand. People claim they "believe/follow" the bible.... but never look at the whole book. Then wack jobs like Pastor Phelps come along with his "god hates fags" speech, and christians say he's crazy.... yet the backing of his beliefs come straight from the same bible. Terry Jones as well burning the Quran, where would he get an idea that people that don't believe in the same teachings he does are wrong, should die, and are of the devil? You guessed it... the bible. The bible specifically states unless you believe "jesus is the son of god, you can not enter the kingdom of heaven". There is no tolerance for any other type of religions. There is no "other road". The bible talks over and over about the killing of non-believers and was directly responsible for the Salem witch trials. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18)

And school kid is taught there lessons from the textbook set for their classes. The bible, however, is only partially taught as to leave out a lot of sadistic things that happened. If you believe in the bible, murder of certain people are not only sanctioned, they are commanded.


When Moses brought down the 10 commandments with one of them being "Thou shall not kill"... what was the first thing he did? "And he said unto them: 'Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor." (Exodus 32:27)

What kind of moral person believes shit like that?

Thanks T@D... that is certainly a different side to the bible thans that which i have read... although it has to be said that much of it comes from the old testament, meaning it is not perhaps the most updated views presented in the Bible. One thing - in some of those from the text you presented it is not entirely clear as to whom is speaking, which may effect the actual message the Bible itself is trying to convey.

Obviously it makes it very messy, the Bible is merely a compilation of "prophit"'s writings and doings... even amongst those who do "believe" (as you say.. not all know exactly what they are into, but then not all are 100% dedicated) not all would believe every word in the bible, as being knowlege from God.


-I've been in this clan for what, roughly 6 months now, and i really am still just as amazed at what it is as i was when i first joined. I expected to find a lot of stereotypical gamers on a argument based forum... I was badly wrong. Instead i fine educated, opinionated conscious and perhaps above all in raw value, agreeable members of a family. I congratulate all for keeping it that way - this is certainly the clan for me (but it goes a bit further than clan...)

Epiphany over

Sad story. A woman on the news reporting her story about the tornado devastation in the south said her and her 17 year old son were trying to stay safe in a bathroom. When the tornado hit their house, her son sat up and said "In the name of jesus christ, I command you to stop". He was then sucked out of the room into the tornado and thrown a long distance away and severely injured. So he tried to use his beliefs to no avail.

I'm continuing to research the story to find out exactly what happened after that. I will post more when I get it.